Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill Dogs
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:32:19 EST
From: Marsha Ardoin - MArdoin@AOL.COM

We use the same training for puppy mill dogs and dogs that have been abused....

We have a lot of Puppy Mill dogs with us. I will start by saying that these are small dogs, between 10 and 20 lbs. I put a portable pen in the room by my computer where I spend most of my time. I have papers at one end and a bed at the other. Every hour or so I climb in the pen and sit in the middle of it. To make them completely dependant on me I only feed them by hand and also give them water by hand, holding the bowl while they drink. (I wear a pair of shark gloves for this) After the first day and they are eating readily by hand I start to hold them. I wear gloves and quitely pick them up. The area we are in is not big enough for them to get away. I hold them and pet them softly and talk to them the entire time. At first they are a little shaky, but after a little while they relax and almost act as if they enjoy it...lol

After two weeks of them being in this enclosed area, they are allowed to go free in the house. They, by this time are allowed to eat from a bowl instead of out of my hand but they are still a little stand offish. Each night I hold them in my bed for a little while and talk to them. They soon get to where they actually come to the bedroom to be held.

As far as house training, they follow my dogs to the paper or to the dog door. The dog door is a little tricky for some of them and my husband has to go outside and I pass the dog to him through the door and he passes it back. After a few times they will use the door.

(if after two weeks they are still not responding, we start over again from square one...the key is patience )

Marsha

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill Dogs
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:34:52 EST
From: Marsha Ardoin - MArdoin@AOL.COM

The only reason that I don't crate train puppy mill dogs is that they are raised in a crate or cage environment and they have no problems with going to the bathroom in them, they think that is what they are for.

They are very comforatable in a crate....too comfortable...I take their hiding places away and lure them out into our world as quickly as possible.

Marsha Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill Dogs
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 23:39:08 EST
From: Marsha Ardoin - MArdoin@AOL.COM

The most wonderful part of having Puppy Mill dogs is that they get along with other dogs so well. They are raised in a group environment and they really do well when with the other dogs. I have never had a puppy mill dog fight with my dogs, and this is a real pleasure when they are in the house with you all the time.

Marsha

Subject: Re: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill Dogs
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 22:32:58 +0000
From: Pam Bishop - dobra@pe.net

Marsha wrote:

The most wonderful part of having Puppy Mill dogs is that they get along with other dogs so well. They are raised in a group environment and they really do well when with the other dogs. I have never had a puppy mill dog fight with my dogs, and this is a real pleasure when they are in the house with you all the time.

This is the type of breeds that you are working with. Other breeds can react very differently. I took several Fox Terriers from a situation where they were in horrible conditions (the house was condemned). They were fed from an open bag of dog food and some ate and some didn't. They came out of that puppy mill very food agressive. Since this is a breed that can be dog agressive anyway, it only magnified it.

Other breeds and types can react differently. We need to be careful not to characterize all dogs the same. With the Fox Terriers that have made it thru, most have finally come to be a dog that they should have been. But it doesn't always happen.

Pam
Fox Terrier Rescue
dobra@pe.net

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS
Date: Wed, 4 Nov 1998 21:27:39 PST
From: Cheryl W - lacey59@HOTMAIL.COM

Can vouch for puppy mill dogs, as I adopted an 8 yo Pom about a year and a half ago, she's the sweetest dog I've ever had and loves people. For not being socialized, she's well behaved and craves attention. I'm most amazed at how much she loves kids...Keep up the good work, Marsha!

Cheryl
CUR #244

Subject: Re: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill Dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 00:47:44 -0600
From: "Virginia M. Elliott" - vmewlw@ntws.net

I have a pair of tiny old min pins who must have been hungry a lot. They will curl up in the dog food dish and deny other dogs food. It's kind of funny since there are several dishes full at all times and they don't always do it. This pair will stake out the best sleeping spot and only share with other very gentle dogs. The others get run off.

My dogs have free access to food, water and outside 24 hrs. a day. I keep open crates for anyone who feels the need for one but it's more likely to be one of the happy dogs that just wants a nap.

Thanks to all for great advice. Some I'm going to try on mine and some won't work for my set-up right now. Oh WOW ... I just had a brainstorm ...

I'll get my sweet mother-in-law to try these on one of my old babies if I can convince her spoiled rotten (rescued) peke daughter and chi son to share their mommy.

Virginia

Subject: Re: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: puppy mill dogs (Meat on bones)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 01:01:44 -0600
From: "Virginia M. Elliott" - vmewlw@ntws.net

Hey ladies,

Wish I had gotten this advice from you before I took in my first rescue from a mill. I don't know if I would have turned them down but I would have thought about getting set up for them better. The ones I have are old dogs and people don't want old dogs without the problems, much less the ones who haven't a clue why they should go potty outside while they're out there barking at the neighbor. Sometimes I think they're saving it in case they don't get more food. Sad and I love them but they do use resources and space. I hope this thread will give others a more realistic view of these dogs and their problems.

Virginia Elliott
Pekes and all other small dogs
Paradise, TX
vmewlw@ntws.net
940-969-2316

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] Class:Puppy Mill Dogs (Sorry, long)
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 03:09:22 -0500
From: kathy dewees - tdewees@IX.NETCOM.COM

This is a class subject near and dear to my heart, as DVAR has been involved in helping shut down 5 Akita puppy mills over the past 10 years and we have had over 100 Akitas from those shutdowns through our kennel..and every one we took in was happily adopted and adapted WONDERFULLY into home life. I have not seen any situations where the puppy mill adults were ever hard to housebreak, but then Akitas seem to be much easier to housebreak than other breeds (and I've owned a lot of breeds in my 40+ years and board tons of breeds in my boarding kennel) possibly due to their cat-like demeanor about cleanliness. Even pet store puppies seem to housebreak easily in our breed....and if they don't its a pretty safe bet they have some urinary problem that is causing them to be dirty in the house.

I have seen it be 50-50 about the ability to get along with other pets as someone else mentioned....the group we got from the NY Puppymill shut down was VERY good with other same sex and opposite sex dogs; but the big group we took in from the Kansas Puppymill shutdown were horrendously animal aggressive....and very few of them ever could be placed with even opposite sex dogs....then some of them were wonderful with other breeds, but would go insane if faced with another Akita...they seemed to sense their own breed and become very very aggressive, over and above the normal Akita agression when faced with another strange Akita.

Maybe we were just lucky, but all the puppymill rescues we have taken in over the years have actually been pretty healthy except for being skinny and needing altering. Even the Kansas dogs that were often missing an ear, toes, parts of tails, etc. were still not health issues down the line. Not sure why....but each puppy mill we were involved with except the NY one, had all started with exceptional stock to breed with so maybe that had something to do with it.

The biggest challenge we had with adopting puppymill Akitas was teaching them to learn the household noises....phones terrified them, rustling the newspaper could make them shake in their tracks; normal household things like stairs and doorways were obstacles we had to, as the rescue, help them to overcome BEFORE placement.....one Akita that I'll never forget was flown out of Kansas at the age of 9 months, and was so terrified when we picked her up at the airport that it took two days to get her out of the crate, and we only got her out then by taking it apart finally....she then curled up in a ball in the doghouse of the kennel run we had placed the crate in, and then another 3 days passed before we took THAT apart. I was positive we were making a mistake to place her EVER....but in the right home in Delaware she flourished, became one of THE FIRST AGILITY AKITAS EVER...and a therapy dog, a CGC Dog, and lived with three other dogs and two small kids til she passed away at age 10 in her sleep. She taught us that even the darkest cases can have light at the end of the tunnel!!! :)

But BUY a puppymill dog? Never ever....not in a million years....the law must be used to shut them down, putting more money in their pocket won't help. They turn around and buy more stock...maybe not in your breed, but in someone else's breed and suffering dogs are suffering dogs, no matter what breed they are. I don't agree with ever buying puppymill dogs. Just MHO of course, but over the last 10 years in rescue, I've seen it backfire WAY MORE than I've seen it ever solve a problem.

We were stymied this summer over a horrible situation in KY with Akitas from a once-reputable breeder that obviously developed some mental problems and was letting her 65+ Akitas starve..... yet we couldn't buy them, we couldn't get the law to help, we couldn't do a thing (don't flame me, we pulled out ALL the stops but her Daddy was a JUDGE and her relatives were the law there so our hands got tied in a million ways)...we spent months working on the situation and finally as a collective, nation-wide effort, had to walk away with knowing we were at least able to talk her into letting 20 of them go to one rescue.....it was a horrible situation, but you have to live with the knowledge that you do what you humanly can.....and you will win a few, and lose a few...and just pray the wins out number the losses.

BTW....these classes are a great idea...thanks to all who take their time to teach!!! :)

Kathy DeWees
tdewees@ix.netcom.com OR kdewees@hotmail.com
Dela.Valley Akita Rescue, Inc.
Akita Rescue Society of America, Inc.
Canine Cottage Boarding Kennel
See our pages at http://members.bellatlantic.net/~tkdewees/
and at www.PRODOGS.com The Premier Dog Site on the web!

Subject: Re: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: puppy mill dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:53:27 +0000
From: Pam Bishop - dobra@pe.net

Virginia wrote:

Personally, I have several old puppy mill dogs and unless I can learn some new tricks they'll be here for life. They all love me and follow me around and eat from my hand.

Many of the old ones do end up staying with their rescuers. But if you have a senior citizens center in your area, that can be a good place to start looking for homes. These centers will have services for seniors, a place to meet and play cards and talk. See if you could, go and give a talk on your rescue work. Clean up a couple of your senior dogs, put on a cute hat or something if you wish and take them. Let the seniors know what these dogs have been thru and show them what wonderful dogs they are now. Tell them that the dogs need their own special person. Set a low adoption fee and see if you can place them with the seniors. You won't get lots of them running for the dogs but you may place a couple. I personally feel that these dogs are usually better off in their own home with a special person of their own. I have a brochure "senior citizens and senior dogs" and will be happy to send it if anyone is interested. Let me know privately.

I've never completely broke them from eating potty even though they have plenty of good food at all times. None are potty trained either.

Because my breeds can't be fed together, food down will cause a fight. I have always fed meals. By doing that I can control when they eat last each day. That can make a difference on when they finish "processing" that food. :-} Easier to housetrain.

Older dogs like us (vbg) will start to lose the ability to "hold it" as long, so you really have to be on your toes. My old (14 yrs) Mickey is housetrained IF I'm there when he wants out. He doesn't inconvenice himself by waiting....:-{ He is also a "poop eater" and I have to be very careful and clean up inside and out immediately. I have several pooper scoopers! And trash cans around the property. Young poop eaters can sometimes be trained out of this, but the old ones, I've never been able to stop. I just have to keep the "food" up. :-}}}

Pam
Fox Terrier Rescue
dobra@pe.net

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: puppy mill dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:23:57 +0000
From: Pam Bishop - dobra@pe.net

Take pictures before you do ANYTHING. This will be for YOU when you get discouraged months later.

I do this with all incoming rescue dogs. Get an intake picture before you touch the dog. Get close-ups of injuries, etc. If there are going to be charges againest the puppy miller, these pictures can help.

Dip them in flea/tick/mange juice (once a week for a month).

Be VERY CAREFUL about this. I'm a prof. groomer and most of us will not use chemical dips on any dog. Using a dip on a sick dog can kill him. Please don't just do this thinking it is safe. If the dog has fleas, there are great organic shampoos that you can use on them that are safe. Better to use that and then get them on Advantage or Frontline. If it's a coated breed and you're trying to save the coat a dip can only make it worse.

Treat ears anyway. Clean with wipes anyway.

If the dog grows hair in the ears, then that has to be pulled out. You cannot do this without ear powder and hemostats. If you try to pull with fingers you'll just get the top hair and not the deep hair that is the problem. If you don't know how to do this have your vet or a groomer teach you. Be sure you know what you're doing. If the dog has a bad ear infection, let the vet handle it.

Bathe dogs. Again. Use something harsh as needed, or human shampoo

NEVER, please, never use a harsh or human shampoo on these dogs. You may think you are doing something to help them, but you are not. You can cause many more problems. Use good quality aloe based dog shampoos. Don't use the market brands. There are several excellent brands and I'll be happy to list them privately. If the dog is badly matted, consider shaving the coat off. It is far better for the dog to have the coat off quickly. You can then see what skin problems the dog has. You'll also see any growths that you may miss otherwise. It is 1000 times easier on the dog if you know what you're doing. If the dog has'nt been groomed in a long time or never before then the stress of putting them though all the brushing etc can only cause more problems. Some can handle it, but many cannot. If you put a harsh shampoo in a matted or heavy coat you will never get all the shampoo out and then you have more skin problems.

Proper grooming methods can make such a difference. Please find out how to do these things correctly and what products are available. I've been doing this for over 25 years and I've done many, many dogs in terrible condition. I've cleaned up many a dog that the owner thought they knew what they were doing. A good investment if you are working with a heavy coated breed is a high velocity dryer. Using it on a dry coat will help you blow the mats out of the coat. Makes all the difference in the world in drying a coat after a bath. Another important thing is you do not let a dog stand in water. You do a shower, not really a bath. If you are dirty from working outside you take a shower and wash the dirt off. Be sure you have someplace to bathe the dog where you have control and can use warm water and a hose. Never rely on a bucket. You will leave shampoo on skin and again cause problems.

I have written a brochure on bathing your dog at home and would be happy to send it to anyone that it interested. I'll also be happy to talk about grooming techiques. Just contact me privately.

Cut nails.

Many dogs are scared to death of nail cutters. If they had them done before it is likely that they were cut back too far and hurt. I use a grinder and most dogs will except that. I use a Mini-Dremel cordless that you can buy at any hardware store. It comes with a sandpaper attachment that you use to sand down the nail. It takes some practice, but is much easier. Just touch the sander to the nail. Don't hold it to the nail for more than a couple of seconds as it will build up heat. You can sand the nails every week and keep them short and smooth. No more getting cut yourself by freshly cut toenails :-}

Start a Rescue Diary or Journal. Take pictures. Write down their medical treatments and progress

This is wonderful advise. Document everything. You may need the info on what was wrong with this dog for the D.A. if they decide to press charges. All your documentation can help.

Pam
Dobra Dog Grooming
Fox Terrier Rescue
dobra@pe.net

Subject: Re: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill Dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:26:14 -0500
From: Sidney Helen Sachs - sleddog@GTE.NET

Aggression:

Our Siberians were chosen by the breeder for submission, extreme submission. And he culled (sold) harshly. They lived 3 bitches and 1 dog in a 4'x10' (approximately) run and bred as they wanted. Pups were left with the group, so he had a lot of would-be-sold pups that became breeders because of injured eyes, ears, etc.

Maxi had "small eye" caused by an injury, maybe. Lucy was missing the top of one of her ears (where the tattoo might have been) and Bourbon had a tattered ear from a long ago fight (that I know in my heart he did not start -- not this un-growly-boy) that was never stitched or cut off, just left to heal or not.

These dogs were so frightened of people, that a Siberian, the friendliest breed in existence, refused to come to us for a week, food ot not. And we had to walk him down in the 150'x30' wooded isolation lot. His reaction was to cower into the smallest little knot of trembling dog you have ever seen. And no matter what we did to him, reaching into crates, drag him by his ruff, we NEVER heard a growl out of him. With his extreme social problems if he had growled, we would have had to euthanize, because he was a prime candidate for fear biting -- however...

He didn't growl, showed zero aggression, and now is the darling of his new owners who take him on camping trips, and to dinner parties (if he is to be allowed to hang out under a table and watch).

Sidney Helen Sachs & Ken Copeland
Shaconagee & Sleddog Rescue
Alaskan Malamutes & Siberian Huskies
http://home1.gte.net/sleddog/

"Puppy Mill Dogs"
Part 3