Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill Dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 09:59:12 EST
From: Marsha Ardoin - MArdoin@AOL.COM

They came out of that puppy mill very food agressive. Since this is a breed that can be dog agressive anyway, it only magnified it.

Most of them are aggressive over food when I get them but most of them look like they haven't had enough to eat, so I expect that. This is a part of training also. We have to monitor food and treats very closely the first month. I do free feed them so that they know there are always bowls of food in the house. I keep a feeder in the Kitchen and another one in the Bedroom. If I need to I put additional bowls out. They get confused trying to guard every bowl and eventually realize that there is pleanty for all and stop. I free feed so that they know that food is always there for them but mainly so they can learn to share. Many homes we place them in has another pet and I like to stop this type of aggression as quickly as possible.

All rescue dogs need to be montiored very closely and not left alone until you know them well enough. They come to us generally frightened and on good behavior, it takes a couple of weeks to see the real dog we took in, so combined with the quaranteen, after a month they start to show themselves....another reason that I keep my rescues longer....I want to know them well before I place them.

I had a lady tell me that old mill dogs can't be turned around and that they should be put down. I took in an 18 year old from a shelter that was going to be put down. This was the most aggressive dog I have ever had. She bit me and my husband several times and was very serious in this bit. She fought over food, over beds, over anything she could think of. If another dog came near her she would get him. She now eats with everyone, is house trained, and has learned to sit on command and sits up so cute at treat time. It took a lot of patience and work and a couple of months of sticking to her like glue, but she is now a house pet. It can be done, but we really have to work at it. I might add that her redeaming quality through all of this is that she loved kids....she never bit them and this wonderful little girl, so I knew that there was hope.

Marsha

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill Dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 08:25:17 -0800
From: "Muhlbauer, Cinnamon" - Cinnamon.Muhlbauer@METROKC.GOV

We adopted 2 Eskies from a puppymill in June. The mother dog was about 10 years old and her health was so poor we had her only until the last week of September. She had the aura of one who had given up hope of ever having enough to eat or somewhere soft to sleep. She expected nothing. Her age and her health made it easy to handle her and she bonded with my husband immediately. She was fine with other dogs, had no food aggression, but had to be watched all the time or she would mess in the house. As inconvenient as that was, we let her slide, knowing she didn't have much time; and, my husband was determined she would have only love and comfort her last days.

Her son on the other hand, is completely animal aggressive. Possessive of food, waters any upright object in or outdoors and retreats into a snarling, whimpering heap if his name is even said sharply. Frankie has made progress; but it has been a very slow, very hard process. We are almost able to touch him freely. He is still very hand-shy about his rear quarters. His right front leg was crushed when he was a puppy and he never received any care -- in fact, we believe he survived only by a miracle. We completely understand his food aggression, we know he had to fight for every mouthful.

To ease the food stress, we always have kibble and water available. Now that he finally realizes the bowl is never empty, he is not so inclined to guard it. Bones and goodies are given to him in his crate so he doesn't fear losing his treat. This has really helped him.

Also, because Frankie lived his life in a pen prior to joining us, he wants and needs the security of a crate. We resisted doing this at first. But Frankie goes to his crate when he feels threatened or tired or whatever...and he comes out when he is ready.

I don't know if this helps explain how to work with puppymill dogs, but as Pam said, it does depend on the breed. And of course-- age and health also impact a dog's ability to settle in and/or accept change.

Cinnamon

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppymill dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 11:44:04 -0500
From: Susan Feingold - feingold@MINDSPRING.COM

I've been involved in the shutting down of a few puppymills and have fostered some puppymill dogs including one that I adopted. The problems associated with puppymill dogs depends alot on how the dogs were kept/treated at the mill. If they were kept in crates or small wire cages that their feces fell through their entire lives, then of course, crates will do absolutely no good when it comes to housebreaking. For those dogs, umbilical cord training really works well when you're home and just putting newspaper down in a small room works well when you're not. If the dogs were kept outside in dog runs (usually lots of dogs crammed into dog runs) then they are usually easier to housebreak. But the biggest problem with puppymill dogs in my opinion is the socialization problem. For instance, my sheltie, Cricket, was literally scared to death of every noise in the house including the sound of opening an envelope! The phone, dishwasher, etc scared her to death. She would run and hide in her crate shaking all day. She was also scared of people, had never walked on grass before so was scared of grass, couldn't walk up/down steps, ...the list goes on. I got smart and after a few weeks of no progress, I got rid of the crate and forced her to start entering the real world. Without her hiding place she started becoming more outgoing and started to make more progress. I kept her leashed to me lots of the time and gently forced her to accept patting, treats from my hand, being around people, household noises, etc. It's been over 2 years and she still gets scared easily, especially if I raise my voice to anyone in the house, but has become a normal dog who is very outgoing and friendly even to strangers.

Susan Feingold
Pet Orphan Rescue and Adoption
Sheltie Rescue of GA

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:08:23 -0500
From: Elizabeth Sommers - ESOMMERS@COURTS.STATE.NY.US

Hi, chiming in (belatedly),

First, a question about the beginning premise: "buying" puppy mill dogs? It would break my heart but I can't imagine doing that, under any circumstances, except perhaps an auction dispersing the stock of someone who died or went to jail ($ won't go to start another one, and the only other people who would be buying would put them right back in hell). Even if one person's purchase, or more, won't stem the tide or even be felt, I'd feel MISERABLE doing it. To me, it's paying someone to enslave another creature for another year.

There are, however, lots of ways to get puppy mill dogs, and the very best is when they are seized and turned over in response to a successful prosecution!!! :-) I know, I've done it, it feels WONDERFUL! ----------- We also got some by an anonymous agreement with a dog product salesman -- he knew that certain "non-productive" dogs were going to be put down (probably shot) but convinced the breeder to turn them over to rescue if the owner's name was never revealed. The salesman signed the release paper and wrote out -- but gave not records - when they'd had shots. --------- I'll take a puppy mill dog any day, any way -- except paying for them! Even if we couldn't place them, couldn't socialize them, couldn't keep them -- a week or so of love, warmth and food -- and someone to hold them when they went to the Bridge might make a big difference in what their life was, and would stop the hell they were in. (Can you tell I care about this topic? - Time for "I Am Famous" right?)

When a rescue group takes in dogs to assist in closing down a puppy mill, there IS some help available. I am on the Board of Directors of The April Fund (www.theaprilfund.org), which was created for just this purpose. We have (to the extent possible, given what money we have - not a hell of a lot) loans for immediate costs, grants for medical problems, and other help available. Also, I believe that some breed clubs have special funds for *their* dogs that are removed from puppy mills. Every breed that is represented in puppy mills is being "infected" -- health, temperament, appearance, and morally.

Socializing, training, etc.: It varies so much.

One very big factor: did the dog have a life *before* the puppy mill? If so (and many do), chances are good that they will bounce back and (hopefully) see that episode as a horrible nightmare. It's amazing how resilient (and willing to trust) some are.

With the have-known-no-other-life ones, like my April, the keys are to have other dogs around (think "Animal Farm" -- they only trust other animals) and to let them WATCH healthy interaction between you and your non-traumatized dogs. They learn so much that way, it's unbelievable. (And, frankly, that's a problem with people in rescue who sort of accumulate only "misfits" -- it really helps the problem dog to be around others that are well-socialized, trusting, happy).

Housebreaking -- strangely, this really hasn't been a problem, quite possibly because I have a dog door. They've learned it quickly and used it religiously. Minimal contact with people, I guess - and even with an accident there has to be some interaction. Now, if I had to have them *come* to me to *ask* to go out -- yeah, I can see that would be a problem...... Hmmmmm.

Civilized behavior -- don't give up on them but set your clocks on a different time-interval. It took 6 months for April to stop barking hysterically when a man -- even a man who lived in the house! and who she loved to cuddle with! -- would walk in the room. Three years later, it still happens if it's dark, or a strange man, or sudden movement, but she's so, so much better! (We've also taught her to go grab a woobie and bark through that - easier on the ears.) And certain things -- with the Musto dogs it was baseball caps, 3/4 length winter coats, and clothes that are loose and make a noise flapping -- they are always hyper-sensitive to.

Push them -- gently and just a bit at a time, but still a push. April trembled, visibly, through her first obedience class -- but she trembled a little less the next time. Now she's CGC, TDI and has had the happiest days of her life (I mean BURSTING with pleasure) on the agility course. But I'd had to push her down that first ramp.

Training, especially agility, is wonderful with them. I still get chills when I remember the look on her face, I think it was the 3rd or 4th class, when I said sit, she sat, and I gave her the piece of hot dog. It suddenly clicked! She put her head up, looked off sort of in the distance, squared her shoulders a bit and you knew, just knew!!, that for the very first time in her life she realized that she had POWER -- power to make good things happen to her! And I started hearing in the back of my head - truly! - Helen Reddy's anthem: "I am woman, Watch me roar!...." Chills? Make that chills and tears that I still get. It was just one of *those* moments.

Cut them slack on the really tough stuff -- if there is a lot of chaos going on in the house, April just goes to a back room (and is not unwilling about it). When I take off on a 3,000 mile trip, I don't take April, who still can't go really long distances without losing lunch. (But so much better - it used to be around the block!)

And back to my first point and the one that I think is absolutely the most important -- let them watch and observe and be around happy, healthy, trusting dogs who interact with you freely and with pleasure. I don't think I could have brought around the ones we have without that most impressive of all lessons. April, and Bonnie, and Peyton and others all learned to trust humans because they eventually "took the word" of my other dogs (who are spoiled rotten and think the world is their oyster).

There is nothing you will do in your life that gives you a better feeling than giving one of these dogs -- well, Life!

Betsy Sommers
GRROWLS-NY (Albany Liaison)

Subject: Re: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:48:34 -0500
From: Sidney Helen Sachs - sleddog@GTE.NET

Re: Never buying puppymill dogs.

Never say never. This is exactly how I felt, no way in Green Hell would I pay a monster like a puppymiller for his dogs, just perpetuates the process...

This particular miller was going OUT of business, lock, stock & barrel. He would sell to rescue or to another breeder. The Sibernet-L list was in an uproar for months. Finally some people donated the THOUSANDS of dollars and some people took in the dogs and took care of them. And you know what? None of the dogs are in puppymill hells now... All of them are altered and in homes.

Difficult decision. I hope I don't have to make this decision again any time soon.

Sidney Helen Sachs & Ken Copeland
Shaconagee & Sleddog Rescue
Alaskan Malamutes & Siberian Huskies
http://home1.gte.net/sleddog/

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS: Puppy Mill dogs - purchase
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 12:59:15 -0500
From: Elizabeth Sommers - ESOMMERS@COURTS.STATE.NY.US

This particular miller was going OUT of business, lock, stock & barrel. He would sell to rescue or to another breeder.

Yep, that's the toughest. When you are pretty sure that it is a true going-out-of-business (not just financing replinishing the stock), when you know the dogs will be bought anyway, when you know they will be bought by someone who will put them back in hell ............. Yeah. "Never say never" is right. If a certain broker I knew near here were to put up a "Everything For Sale" sign over his breeding stock, I'd probaby be the first one in line. :-( Might do it as an individual, rather than have rescue pay for something like that, but that is splitting hairs.

For anything short of a true dispersal -- where the place is going to be closed down, at least temporarily -- I think I could hold the line.

Betsy Sommers

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS:dealing with pupppymill dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 17:46:11 -0500
From: Dina Zinnes - d-zinnes@UIUC.EDU

This is late --- sorry, but my university server refuses to let me on evenings anymore.

What I would like to see people share are their experiences with trying to rehab puppymill dogs.

My breed is the Keeshond, so I feel I have a relatively good start on the rehab process. Even so, there are a number of problems.

The two issues that are probably the most serious in trying to get one of these dogs ready for a home are (1) fear, (2) housebreaking.

Fear seems to come in many shapes and sizes for these unfortunates. Going into a house --- doors --- are typically terrifying. Noises, of almost any sort, make them jump like frogs. Touch and human contact seem to be initially very painful. They hide in corners, love crates like nobody's business, cower under beds, tables.

Here are a few things that I have learned.

First, when I get one of these dogs I always put them on a very long (tracking-like) lead when I let them loose in the yard --- I spent one terrible night chasing a puppymill dog all over the yard. These guys are terrified and run as if their life depended on it. You have to have a way to catch them.

Second, I do not let these dogs stay in crates, indeed I try not to let them cower under furniture or in corners. These are all self reinforcing. The dog is fearful. It runs to its crate. Nothing bad happens. Lesson: crates are safe. What we have to do is show them that other places are safe also. I try to make corners and furniture inaccesible so the dog is required to be "out" with others. The dog slowly learns that this is ok too.

Third, I make a practice of touching the dog. It typically cowers and looks miserable. But interestingly it typically enjoys it --- tho you would never know this from its demeanor at the time. But as you do this, short intervals upon short intervals, you find the dog slowing coming towards you --- it likes petting and wants more.

Next lets consider housebreaking. The older the dog, in my experience, the harder this is. But I learned --- from this list! --- that given a chance dogs typically like to be clean. I have tried not crating a puppymill dog when I am not home or asleep, because of the above principal. But have discovered, over a number of years, that this just doesn't work. They are used to going whenever and wherever. So I do crate when I cannot let them out frequently (e.g. when gone or asleep). BUT, I use two crates, pushed door to door. In one I put the bedding material. In the adjacent one I put some of those puppy pee pads you can get at PetSmart, etc. It takes some days, but I have been surprised at the extent to which this will work. Another important ingredient, of course, is to keep the dog clean. I like to get the dog groomed as soon after it arrives as possible and to keep it clean during the training period.

Would love to hear from others about their experiences in getting a puppymill dog ready for its new home.

Subject: [DOG-RESCUE] CLASS:dealing with pupppymill dogs
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 1998 19:13:28 -0500
From: Elizabeth Sommers - ESOMMERS@COURTS.STATE.NY.US

BUT, I use two crates, pushed door to door. In one I put the bedding material. In the adjacent one I put some of those puppy pee pads you can get at PetSmart, etc. It takes some days, but I have been surprised at the extent to which this will work.

That's great -- it's what I do with the puppies I raised (and it's amazing how it works with even 6 week olds) but never thought about with an older, un-housebroken dog.

I see we differ on letting them have a crate (or where ever) to run to --- and it may differ with the degree of chaos in the particular house. My house is quite chaotic, at least at times, and the puppy mill - and other severely traumatized - dogs I've had have come from outside pens and barns. If *I* was the dog I would have wanted a safe place to get away from it all, so I gave it to them, and let them decide when they wanted to enter the fray. They all have. It may vary with breed, or with chaos level in the house, or with the time available to make the transition (I suspect mine are slower) --- *or* it may demonstrate the fact that there are different ways to get to the same goal!

What a wealth of ideas -- thanks everyone! And the nicest part is that maybe it will make others on the list a bit more ready to say "yes" if they are given the chance to get one or more of these dogs out.

Betsy Sommers
GRROWLS (Albany, NY)