Subject: Re: CLASS, LEGAL: Protecting adopters
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:56:57 PDT
From: Marie Feldner - mfeldner@HOTMAIL.COM

Hey Class!!

I'm in this very situation right now, only my problem hasn't gotten as far as the adopter yet. I got a call from animal control that this dog was off of stray hold as of yesterday. Because of the shape of the dog, they knew they wouldn't be able to adopt it out. I have incurred charges from the shelter for vaccinations, etc. I made arrangements for someone to bring me the dog (a 9 hour drive). I am meeting them in a few hours. Last night I got a call from a TERRIBLE breeder in our club. She's breeding dogs that are way out of the standard and no spay/neuter contract, lets the pups go at 5 weeks, etc, etc. There isn't anyone happy about her being in the club, but not much we can do except educate her. She doesn't show, just breeds. Anyway, she said a family that bought a puppy from her a year ago called that the dog is missing. (has been for a month already) This BYB called to ask me if I got in any dogs from out of state lately that were strays. It's possible that this dog might be the one. According to the shelter, she's still not spayed, full of fleas, terrible shape and was in the shelter for the FULL 7 days. Legally she is mine. right? Even though I don't have a home picked out for her yet, I am wondering if I'm legally obligated to turn the dog over to them. No tattoo, no chip, so I've already said I need recent pictures of the dog before I'll even let them see her.

This is a great opportunity for me to educate both these people (the owners and the breeders) on responsible pet-buying. After all, why isn't this girl spayed? She's definitely not show quality. The BYB told me that she was stolen from the family's back yard where she was tied up along with a GSD that hasn't been found yet either. She also said that they called the area shelters and left their names. The shelter is 1/2 hour from their home. If your dog was missing, wouldn't you KEEP CALLING and asking if your dog was there? Wouldn't you place ads in the paper trying to find them? Wouldn't you have your dog tattooed or chipped for easy identification? Would'nt you keep the dog in the house or secured when you are not home? This would not be a home that I would adopt a rescue to, so I am wondering if I"m obligated to give them their dog back, if it's proven to be theirs? and if so, can I have the dog spayed and brought up to date on shots (if she's not) and charge them for it??

Marie Feldner
Nevada

Subject: CLASS: Protecting adopters
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:56:08 -0400
From: hhe - hhe@UCS.NET

Marie:

I would speak with the shelter to make sure they have satisfied their requirements to adopt this dog out? Is it a municipal shelter, what does the code that governs them say? Have they transferred ownership to you with whatever forms they regularly use for adoptions?

I can only tell you what I would do If I did not believe the dog was indeed theirs and that would be to proceed as I would with any other adoption. If they don't want the dog adopted out they have the choice of going to court and getting an order restraining you from adopting the dog to another person. This is fact would most likely result in an expedited hearing on the merits in which the matter would be settled.

I would answer the breeder's questions truthfully.

If I was convinced the dog was theirs I would consider my expenses a lien on the dog and collect that money before the dog was returned. Would I consider that to be a legal obligation based on the facts that you gave? No. If I were not happy with returning the dog under these circumstances I would hold the dog and wait to see if they could convince a court to order otherwise.

Helena

Subject: CLASS: Protecting adopters(clarification)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:23:08 -0400
From: hhe - hhe@UCS.NET

To clarify my previous message copied below. The "theirs" I refer to from the paragraph beginning "I can only tell you what..." is the alleged prior ownder and/or the breeder. In reading the message as it appeared I realized that I referred first to the shelter as "they" and then the breeder's people. Sorry.

Helena

Previous message follows: Marie:

I would speak with the shelter to make sure they have satisfied their requirements to adopt this dog out? Is it a municipal shelter, what does the code that governs them say? Have they transferred ownership to you with whatever forms they regularly use for adoptions?

I can only tell you what I would do If I did not believe the dog was indeed theirs and that would be to proceed as I would with any other adoption. If they don't want the dog adopted out snip...snip...

Subject: CLASS: Protecting adopters
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:11:57 -0400
From: hhe - hhe@UCS.NET

At 12:20 PM 9/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
Going along with this topic of owners who try to get back their dogs after they've been adopted to someone else...

Can someone force a rescue program to identify the adopter? We have a policy of not telling the adopter who the owner was and vice versa, but I'm wondering if a court could force us to break that policy and under what circumstances. (We're not being threatened; I'm just curious for the future.)

Has anyone had this experience?

If a shelter has followed the rules and laws governing their adoption procedures any right of prior ownership should be severed. If the shelter has not followed the rules and/or laws they may have some responsibility to the original owner. I believe it unlikely that subsequent takers from a shelter could be held liable to previous owners unless they (i.e. the rescue) had some relationship with the shelter such as that of agents. In an agency situtation the ultimate liability would still rest with the shelter. The shelter has either effectively cut off prior ownership or they have not. Innocent takers are not responsible for the shelter's actions. Where there has been fraud or deceit, that is yet another story.

As to whether a rescue could be forced to reveal who the adoptive owner was, "forced" to me implies a court order. Do your procedures provide for anonymity of adoptive homes and is that procedure followed by your group in the course of your business. If so, what problem would you see in following your procedure up to the point of a court ordering your rescue to reveal the adoptive owner if that was to be its decision? In fact, such information is typically sought in the phase of litigation called "discovery". In discovery litigants or non-party witnesses may be asked by their opponents to reveal relevant information. However, it takes the institution of a lawsuit and some expenditure of capital by the party seeking this information to get to this juncture.

There are many problems with attempting to answer such questions in this forum. Slight differences in facts may cause different rules to be applied or applied with different results. One sides rendition of the "facts" is often different than the other side's rendition thus creating factual questions that might have to be resolved in court before the law can be applied. There is no one golden answer to many such questions.

Helena

Subject: Re: CLASS: Any topics for discussion
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:33:55 -0500
From: Beverly Coate - bcoate@CWIS.NET

I would like to hear about the legalities we could get into trying to raise money for a rescue programs. Such as donation cans in businesses, raffles, etc.

Beverly Coate
C&C Farms Stigler Oklahoma USA
Visit our website at http://www.cwis.net/~bcoate
bcoate@cwis.net

Subject: CLASS: Other Questions
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 16:24:21 -0400
From: "Beth E. Widdows" - bew1234@TIR.COM

I am going to repeat my earlier question because I didn't really hear an answer.

You have to pay taxes on donations? Is there a minimum amount before you have to fill out a tax form like there is for an individual's earnings?

Someone mentioned something about $25000. Is the amount you have to get before you have to pay taxes? In this case, no worries!!

Beth Widdows
Westie Rescue-SE Michigan

Subject: Re: CLASS: Other Questions
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:42:26 -0700
From: Karen Mayer - rottlover@SYSPAC.COM

Beth E. Widdows wrote:
I am going to repeat my earlier question because I didn't really hear an answer.

You have to pay taxes on donations? Is there a minimum amount before you have to fill out a tax form like there is for an individual's earnings?

I'm wondering whether for those of us not yet incorporated, we can consider the "donations" as "gifts." The recipient of a gift does not pay the infamous gift tax -- it's the giver who pays that tax IF the gift is in excess of the 10,000 per year limit. (Or is it $20,000? I forget!)

Someone mentioned something about $25000. Is the amount you have to get before you have to pay taxes? In this case, no worries!!

And it's the giver, not the recipient, who is responsible for the gift tax!
:-D

Karen Mayer - Mesa, AZ - rottlover@syspac.com
******************************
Be Someone's Hero Today
Save a life, make a friend
******************************
Phoenix Area Rottweiler Rescue
http://www.rottlover.com/rescue

Subject: Re: CLASS: Other Questions
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 17:03:39 -0400
From: hhe - hhe@UCS.NET

Beth:

If you are referring to my earlier comment regarding donations given to an unincorporated rescuer, let me answer.

Incorporated not-for-profit rescues may or may not have tax exempt status. This impacts both whether they will pay certain taxes and whether donations made to the rescue are able to be claimed as deductions by the donor when he or she files her returns. Regardless of whether or not you are incorporated you may be responsible for some taxes. Whether you are or not depends on factors which include the character of your income, federal and state tax laws and regs. These questions must be answered by your tax person based on your individual situation.

My point re the unincorporated person being given donations of money to pursue their rescue hobby was that the money (gifts) might be taxable and the person receiving the money should be disclosing this income along with all other personal income and get their accountant or tax advisor's guidance.

Helena

Subject: Re: CLASS: Any topics for discussion
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 21:56:06 -0400
From: hhe - hhe@UCS.NET

At 04:33 PM 9/18/98 -0500, you wrote:
I would like to hear about the legalities we could get into trying to raise money for a rescue programs. Such as donation cans in businesses, raffles, etc.

Beverly:

I don't know if there are any restrictions you would run into with either cans placed in businesses or raffles (I assume offered to the general public) insofar as your town, city, state, etc. You would have to research that locally. You might have to meet some requirements and/or receive a permit to solicit in either way. Perhaps others can contribute info on this. Fundraising itself is a good discussion item for CHAT, IMO.

My cautions, again, are to keep excellent financial records and do not tell anyone their donations are tax deductible. If anyone asks you, tell them to see their own accountant and be upfront about your own status.

Helena

Subject: Re: CLASS: Donations
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 05:55:53 -0400
From: Doug Crowne - dcrowne@WATARTS.UWATERLOO.CA

I have been classifying donations for record-keeping purposes as reimbursements of expenses. The people who donate understand that, so no one is being cheated, and I can easily prove that my Rescues' veterinary expenses have far outstripped the sum total of moneys donated.

That seems reasonable to me but does anyone know for sure whether it is legit? (That's a Canadian question, BTW)

Sandy
LadyKin OES

Subject: Re: CLASS: Donations
Date: Sat, 19 Sep 1998 09:43:27 -0400
From: Judy Marion - iluvdogs@HUSKYNET.COM

When I do my books (keep a ledger all year) I separate donations from Adoptions. I don't know if you are non-profit or not but since I am I have a column for: adoptions, administrative costs, donations, medical services, medical supplies, cash re-imbursements, postage. This way when I do my taxes I separate all my checks according to the columns add them up, then add my deposit slips and I use the 990 EZ form.

Of course NO ONE else HAS to do it this way. (I suppose I need to stress that) But I find it the easy way to fill out the 990 form in alot less time. If you are non-profit and get donations that is a different issue that money collected for an adoption. I list then separately. If I ever get audited I can show everything adopted every donation, every vet expense, every check written for supplies and if you don't get donated dog food and have to buy that,save your receipts and make an extra column. I save every single receipt and each adopter gets a copy of the breakdown of costs incurred for that dog. I keep the same copy and staple it to my contracts. Now let me repeat this again. This is just the way *I* keep my books, not that anyone else has to.

Judy
NoVa Rottweiler Rescue League, Inc/MD,DC,VA
http://waikaloa.huskynet.com/rottirescue/rescue.htm

Subject: CLASS: Subjects of interest
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:23:00 -0400
From: Curtis Edenfield - curtisedenfield@WORLDNET.ATT.NET

I am sending a copy of Rachel Osbornes post that spoke about proposed subjects to be discussed during this [CLASS] :

• Introduction to Rescue
• Forms and paperwork
• Legal
• Screening - dogs and homes
• Working with Shelters
• Working with Breeders
• Health Problems
• Advertising and Promo
• Placing Senior Dogs
• Problem Dogs/ Training
• Should you work with a Breed Club

Then "problem dogs/training" is an interest of mine, because I am dealing with that right now.

Jane Edenfield: owned by:
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Buster, M/neut 6/95 Flashy Red Fawn (cropped ears)
Cookie F/spd 9/96 Flashy Red Fawn(cropped ears) Deceased 11/2/97
Sophie F/spd 11/96 Flashy Fawn (cropped ears)
Simon M/neut 11/97 Flashy Brindle (cropped ears)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Living happily ever after in Odessa, Florida (near No. Tampa)
curtisedenfield@worldnet.att.net

Subject: Re: CLASS, LEGAL: Legal Issues w/ Saying "NO"
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 14:37:50 +0000
From: Pam Bishop - dobra@pe.net

Classmembers...

We are closing the discussion on safety issues as of now. Our there any other LEGAL questions. We have thru tomorrow (Friday) to finish covering LEGAL and then take a recess over the weekend. We will start Monday morning with SCREENING - Dogs and Adoptors.

Pam Bishop
dog rescue class
admin

Subject: Re: CLASS: Any topics for discussion
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 13:46:49 +0000
From: Pam Bishop - dobra@pe.net

Dixie wrote>
I would like to learn more about fundraising. How do we go about fundraising? How can those of us who are not 501(c)3s fundraise?

Fundraising questions will be covered in the week of: Advertising, Promotion and Fundraising. This will be later in the classes. This week is for Legal questions only.

Next week we will start on Screening - Dogs and Adoptors

Hope that helps.

Pam Bishop
dog rescue class
admin

Subject: CLASS: Thank you all.
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:17:36 -0400
From: hhe - hhe@UCS.NET

Pam has asked me tell you that legal is ending later this evening, as planned and that after a weekend breather the next topic for discussion will commence on Monday.

Thank you all for your interest and participation.

Helena

Subject: CLASS: Chat: Protecting adopters(clarification)
Date: Fri, 18 Sep 1998 22:32:57 -0400
From: R&J Wilson - j.r.wilson@mindspring.com

Thanks Helena for your class.

Jo Wilson & Blue, CGC
Macon, GA
j.r.wilson@mindspring.com